Of course cars will eventually be larger/different. The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. It's the expansion part that really gets it. And do they have child seats? Detroit Diesel has the same problem... because they are just low-rent MBE motors now. One needs to consider the need to get to your car (or car gets to you, i guess) first, drive to the tunel, get to the transit depth, then drive through, then get to the ground level... find a parking spot and WALK to you destination... at such distances, yeah, walking all the way can get you there at closely same time, with some cardio as a bonus. They are pushing the space industry forward in ways we haven't seen since the USA vs USSR era decades ago. They are building solar roofs, house battery packs and even power plant battery packs.   * With two minute transfer times direct-to-destination across what's normally a 20-30 minute walk on the long leg, up to 60 minutes during crowded times That there's no waiting? They are building tunnels, even if this one fell very short of their proposal. I don't disagree that if you were offered something and you agree to buy you should get what was offered. Seems like a lot of hassle when they could just have used an electric train powered directly. Let's contrast the Vegas Loop with the Vegas Monorail, shall we? TBMs Main Beam Double Shield Single Shield Crossover EPB Back-Up Systems ... Worker safety is of utmost importance to your company. Are you telling me Musk didn't know his "replacement" wasn't a replacement at all? "Use technology developed within one Musk company (Tesla) to support another technology (Boring Co)". Using smaller light trains that are walk-on rather than sit-down like a car would mean you could have them arriving every minute or two, and they would be much more accessible for people with disabilities or luggage. This is the Musk m.o. They are building rockets and spaceships, for cheaper than NASA or any other country on the planet. Per TFS, it is 800-1200 passengers per hour vs. 620. The point is where this is headed, not where it is. Model S Plaid costs $40K (50%) more than Model S Long Range, while offering more power (and reduced range), so obviously some people care, or they would not pay the extra $40K. With this, theoretically, yiu could get into a car, input destination B, C, D or E into your board computer, drive down the tunnel ramp at A and an automated guidance system would take it from there. Elon Musk is merely the latest in a long line to propose a dubious "alternative" to rail that completely sucks, not to create something better, but to avoid letting rail become respectable again. The actual cost of that tunnel is not public but presumably they expect to make some money from fares. In the real world, a fleet is better off with Gilligs with Cummins. Musk hypes so much they everyone expects a technological miracle whenever they're invited to see a demonstration. That it was built quickly, even during a pandemic? Come on, it's less than 2 miles .. 35 miles per hour will get you there in well under 2 minutes. Just build moar roads DUH!". If it's unpainted you can paint it, and then you'll have something to watch... To be fair: Does power matter, other than running out of battery quicker? Official fanpage of The Boring Company. Give it a chance. The only winner is musk taking millions and delivering crap. Let's see the reactions of reporters who were [youtube.com] actually there [youtube.com]. Most Europeans I know think that Britain's system is pretty awful, yet every American I've met who's been to Britain has come back raving about the rail system there and wishing they had the option to avoid driving once in a while and take a train for longer journeys. 4,200 passengers per hour vs. 6201.5 years to build vs. 4yrsZero wait time vs. 6 minutes$52m for 1,1mi vs. $650m for 4mi. I could see paying more for more acceleration or maybe even for higher top speed, although personally I'd consider cornering and ride comfort to be much more important. Elon Musk's Boring Company Finally Unveils Las Vegas Tunnel, little more than reinvented subways with significantly less passenger capacity, about 10 mph less than the top speed of a 1908 Ford Model T, fire regulations will limit the system to moving between 800 and 1,200 people per hour, same ballpark as normal vehicular street traffic, Facebook Says It's Banning the Phrase 'Stop the Steal', Google Suspends Parler From App Store; Apple Gives 24-Hour Warning, Parler CEO Complains Vendors 'All Ditched Us Too', While Confused Users Download 'Porn-y' App Parlor, Twitter Flags Trump and White House Tweets About Minneapolis Protests for 'Glorifying Violence', Twitter Locks President Trump's Account For 12 Hours, Warns of Permanent Suspension, Subway capacity is 80,000 people per hour, Re: Subway capacity is 80,000 people per hour, Re: Subway capacity is 80,000 people per hour, Re:Subway capacity is 80,000 people per hour, This actually has nothing to do with mass transit, seriously scaling up indoor vertical farming, Or he could have just built a metro tunnel, Has no-one actually ever been to a convention. And yet they are still more dangerous than trains, because of rubber tires and tarmac roads. They are building a world-wide internet access service with Starlink using SpaceX. Most accurate guidance system – how far away is the tunnel from its target? Will the system eventually be able to leave the closed loop? Besides they have a byproduct too, and the whole operation is green, organic and circular economish. The Boring Company is gauging interest from everyone (students, companies, hobbyists, etc.) That it's expandable? Maybe we will make friends ==>> utka.su/id7217. Many modern airports have automated people movers which cover this sort of requirement trivially - fully automated, underground, high capacity, quick etc. Musk is the problem, not the solution. The Holland Tunnel is a vehicular tunnel under the Hudson River.It connects Lower Manhattan in New York City to the east with Jersey City in New Jersey to the west. All I see is Musk reinventing standard tunneling and then wasting most of its capacity by using low-capacity vehicles. Perish the thought! How small are these "trains" exactly? Look at the Hyperloop proposal and what it was intended to "derail". If you were ever to test drive a P85D and a 3rd gen P100D (which actually achieved the advertised 700hp), you'd feel the difference. EditorDavid. A train would travel faster and move much more people in each go.If they insist on cars, they could even use "skates" for moving them instead of make them move slowly and yet still much more prone to accidents. Eventually they will be self driving (this should be cake for a self driving solution).   * It's Vegas, so it should be exciting. Perhaps he intends to put tunnel boring machines on starships and send them to Mars. It scales at constant cost with passengers (or benefits sublinearly, if you go up to e.g. a 463hp car (took Tesla 2 years and a lawsuit to admit the truth, after trying everything including trying to convince people that electric horsepower is worth more), and a car which will drive up to 40 feet in a straight line forwards or backwards, while I hold a dead-man switch making sure the car doesn't hit anything (and if it does, it's my fault). Exactly what top speed do you want in a 1-mile leg? Heathrow Airports T5 remote gates system for example, or Dubais link between its T3 buildings etc etc. The Boring Company (Abkürzung TBC, englisch für „das bohrende – oder auch – das langweilige Unternehmen“) ist ein US-amerikanisches Tunnelbau- und Infrastrukturunternehmen.Es wurde von Elon Musk gegründet und hat seinen Sitz in Hawthorne, Kalifornien, auf dem Gelände von SpaceX Fairly small is the point, since tunneling costs are proportional to cross section. It is to us too, so our equipment is designed and manufactured to meet national and international safety standards such as CE, OSHA, and CSA. Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading! (And funny.) Underground mass transit technology is over 150 years old. But there's a reason it doesn't fly anymore. . Using smaller light trains that are walk-on rather than sit-down like a car would mean you could have them arriving every minute or two. That's an interesting idea. Really, now, what kind of person would buy a "Not A Flamethrower" and expect to get a flamethrower? I also love how Slashdot decided to quote only armchair critics who haven't even been there. I wonder if they put some special software on them to limit their top speed. Musk may believe the "trains are obsolete" crap and be a victim of it, or he may be train hater. The Boring Company built a test tunnel in 2018 near its headquarters in Hawthorne, California. It's somewhat less impressive than the Metropolitan Railway from 1863, which went further and carried more passengers... using GWR Metropolitan steam locomotives pulling gas-lit wooden carriages. Anyone who's surprised that they're using a Tesla in v.0 hasn't been paying attention to Musk. Name me one city that will take 50% or more of its public transport customers from within, advances that allow tunneling to performed more cheaply and faster. Those Vegas Loop assume nobody will fuck up driving in and out. I'm waiting for the "full self driving" lawsuits to start flying when people realize that won't deliver either. That it's direct to destination? So far every Tesla which has burned up has suffered some major insult, unlike gasoline cars which sometimes burst into flames for no apparent reason and when not abused in any way. Yeah, I was thinking about that as I watched the video. What did I actually get? The tunnel-boring machine is part of a $570 million, 11-year mega-project. Besides, in a tunnel, on a known path, no cross traffic, consistent lighting and no rain/snow/fog: this is the ideal self-driving environment. And 1-2 minutes wait, plus slower acceleration, so 3-4 minutes travel, equals 5 minutes per trip, vs. 2.   * With zero waiting in most circumstances It's the expansion part that really gets it. The actual cost of that tunnel is not public but presumably they expect to make some money from fares. But for the most part, those failures are for not reaching their pie-in-the-sky goals. If automatic routing and driving is in place, you can move regular cars at 80 mph fender to fender. Sounds about as fast as a hyperloop and moving about the same number of people. Which is why you don't see them fancy Merce. I guess what I'm saying is, of course the first commercial project isn't going to be spectacular. https://www.msn.com/en-us/auto... [msn.com]. Who would have guessed that a technology that lets you put 2000 people in a single vehicle would be more effective than a technology that lets you put 4 people in a single vehicle? Well, also it makes sense to use an electric car in an underground tunnel; saves a lot on ventilation requirements. It's like your own train from the station closest to your home, to the station closest to your workplace. Despite lacking conventional marketing, TBC has somehow captured the imagination of a lot of people. Why bother with the self driving aspect (assuming that's the long term goal)? And wouldn't be anywhere near as comfortable or convenient. More specifically to your question, power absolutely matters to people who choose to pay for it. The summary writer certainly doens't think much of the ability to move from one end of the massive convention center to the other in minutes instead of 20-30 minutes... Has he actually been to a convention? Attackers Can Now Remotely Deactivate WhatsApp on Your Phone, Still-Unidentified Flying Drones Harassed Multiple US Navy Destroyers in 2019. The 4 car Mark VI monorail train accommodates 222 passengers and the trains arrive every four to eight minutes which is a range of 1665 to 3330 people an hour not the "620" he pulls from nowhere. A dumb old sidewalk can move 9,000 people an hour! Speed of implementation, I'd expect. But hey, new shiny shiny, right? That it was cheap? Its to do with facts. 0-60 of P85D and P100D are not that different, yet you can absolutely tell the difference when merging or passing on a highway. Yeah but it's America you're talking about (and Vegas too, at that).     * With zero waiting in most circumstances It's easy to dream until you've got a client. If it does, then replacing the cars by small automated purpose-built capsules could be made to behave like a horizontal elevator with offline stops, whisking small groups of passengers to destinations with few i. Looks like one of those Disneyland rides. Now, subway costs do benefit linearly with route density (up to a point), scale with a constant factor with respect to distance, but suffer negatively linearly with increasing numbers of destinations - as well as having a very high base cost to begin with. I wonder if the contract contained any delivery metrics, and if they will be able to meet them. What works well on the small scale works just as well or better on the large scale. No new comments can be posted. It hadn't occurred to me, but absolutely both these things woul. ~20 passenger vehicles), constant with respect to distance, and benefits logarithmically from an increasing number of destinations (which implies an increasing number of possible routes to get there, because unlike with a subway, everyone takes an optimal route to their destination). Posted The expanded Vegas loop intends to charge low fares but not capital costs; they plan to cover the full cost of capital themselves. We have grand visions for something revolutionary, until we get underway and find out our revolutionary vision isn't actually the most practical way to meet the needs of the customer in the budget and time frame they want. Hey, you're on topic for once! You have two separate destinations, so halve the amount of destination (35 per minute). Isn't that how all projects go? I can see you also haven't spent much time in dense cities where cars are orders of magnitude worse than trains in. The peak capacity assumes it won't grow, and the contract price of $50M is not the build cost. Secondarily, allows easy transport of the vehicles when they're not on the system. by In fact, one of my earliest memories is of my dad's Toronado burning down in our driveway one night. If you have a route that has a peak demand of 4200 passengers per hour (usually much less), and you want to use 1000-passenger subway cars, you're looking at one departure every 15 minutes, rather than instantly. I only found some vague answers in an old FAQ: https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org], I have not found any details on the number of emergency exits or the distances between them. And as noted in several stories linked to in TFS the actual maximum capacity of the Tesla Tunnel looks like 800-1200, with the lower number looking as the most likely, due to those pesky fire safety regulations which are totally unneces, It is very boring for me, talk to me! Huh, Boring Company made a tunnel for a real client! I'd mod this up if I could. My understanding is that a metro tunnel would have higher requirements and perhaps even couldn't be build in some places. They're innovating the way we're making batteries, both in the manufacturing process and the chemical makeup. [thedrive.com]. Meanwhile, the rest of the developed world continues to use it and, if anything, is expanding it. For everybody. Not even London and Paris, which have similar issues with density and old, buried infrastructure. It's a fricken subway tunnel with cars. They must have somewhere to charge all those cars overnight too. Hey, that's not accurate! It works like a highway (onramps, offramps, arterials, etc), except for lacking the primary disadvantage of highways (the huge amount of space they take up in 2D). It's being done to help the train, not the customer - as you said, it's for remote areas where the trains aren't even xlose to full. Designed to transport more than 4,000 convention guests per hour, the loop is the first commercial endeavour for the Boring Company. I want to enjoy the journey, and the end condition. Also, there's nothing "basic" about the cost for which this tunneling project was achieved, and it was still just an early prototype (not even a variant of Prufrock). Did the vehicle meet the claimed performance numbers (i.e. Why? In the 1960s, an established monorail company offered to build Los Angeles a monorail which it would finance out of its own pocket. What product are you referring to? Let's all hope that the driven cars are just a stopgap, to quickly get that first short section of tunnel into use by the first trickle of passengers. Going forward, the ambition is to have complex tunnel systems underneath entire cities, and the LVCC loop could eventually be connected to a … We have been able to do this for a century, and in no way is it better than using a train. It's neat that tunnels can be used for other things too. Mommy, what happens to your files when you die? I'm guessing the real design goal of this thing is off-planet habitat construction, which would explain why it also creates bricks out of excess dirt, a trick of dubious value on earth. Yes, Concorde was way faster. Remember how GM was the first one with the EV-1 but later scraped the whole thing, they would have been decades ahead of the competition. Speaking of which, how are the cars accessible? Comparing horsepower between a gasoline-powered vehicle and an electric vehicle seems kind of nonsensical to me. But that's walking, which is what animals do, and it takes a while and has the potential to make you sweat. It opened in 1980 (not at that length, since some terminals didn't exist yet then). Tunneling is an amazingly useful thing to be able to do, and globally the market in tunnel diggings is something like 1.5 trillion dollars. It's called "induced demand". Now show me someone who's built a 1 mile underground light train system with three stations for $50M. An electric vehicle's torque is constant up to a fairly high speed (e.g. If Boring can make tunnels cheaply and quickly then I could see a large network of these tunnels growing far more quickly and organically. Note that I'm not necessarily talking "full self-. For a test track in the middle of nowhere, he could even do it on the surface. Putting aside whether the tunnel makes sense to move people or not, for a tunnel, it was completed cheaply: LVCVA loop tunnel 12' diameter, w/ 3 stations1.7mi for $53M, $31M/mi, NYC Second Ave subway tunnel ~24' diameter, w/ 3 stations1.8mi for $4.5B, $2500M/mi [marketplace.org]. I know it has mine. Also, any notion that vehicles are equivalent in speed is by someone who has never tried to take ANY wheeled transport out of a busy CES or other large convention in Vegas... it was a 20 minute walk to the strip but I did that every time as it was faster than trying to get a cab out.   * The surface is already built out Solar, massive batteries, underground tunnels...his brother is currently. Teams will compete to bore a 30-meter tunnel with a cross-sectional area of 0.2 square meters (equivalent to a circle with a 0.5-meter diameter). Save money at least in cities like Las Vegas? But anyone looking to Musk to solve America's transportation crisis is looking in the wrong place. If the actual metrics for acceleration and speed are correct, wouldn't that be more relevant? Where are you going to put that dedicated bus lane that runs around the convention center? If the Boring Company has made any advances that allow tunneling to performed more cheaply and faster, that would be very useful - for building subway tunnels. They've promised the moon coming soon many, many times... remember when we were going to have millions of Tesla 3 robotaxis by 2020? The Boring Company’s goal is to build the tunnel infrastructure necessary to enable fast, safe, and comfortable transportation, including Loop and Hyperloop. When was the last time mass transit made national news? People have expressed confusion at Elon Musk’s newest business venture because it appears to simply be a tunnel.. What are the laws governing their operation? Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead. Yes you could walk, but guess what - that is what most people at a convention have been doing for several hours already! Winning categories will include: Fastest to complete tunnel and a driving surface (we will drive a Tesla remote controlled car through the tunnel). This might have been innovative in 1921, but its about as innovative as reinventing the wheel now and utterly pointless except for those people who own a tesla and are so desperate to skip traffic that they'll pay to use this. There are plenty of trains where certain cars split off at different stations without one ever having to leave the train. A year later, it landed a commercial contract in Las Vegas to build a loop tunnel system for public use. Because in the 1970s the Federal government actually gave out grants to "people mover" projects (mass transit by another name) where the one condition was there were no metal rails or flanged wheels involved. They're being forward thinking in how the system is used and banking on Autopilot's FSD improvements which should be doable if they placed a strong focus on the LV area in data collection (ie: similar to Waymo in Phoenix). Out of nearly 400 applicants, twelve teams have advanced through the technical design reviews and have been invited to compete. But if you're doing both expresses and direct routes, and you still want to stick with 1000-passenger vehicles, now they're departing every half hour. Why bother with the self driving aspect (assuming that's the long term goal)? Even cheaper and better to not goto Vegas inthe first place. Deal. THe only humanity Musk is improving is his own bank account for himself. He's built a tunnel that uses guided cars utilising the same technology as guided buses. Had I known this, I wo. : use technology developed within one Musk company (Tesla) to support another technology (Boring Co). If your first commercial project is worse than something from the late 1800's then that's not a visionary move to push technology forward, it's an arrogant move that is holding progress on actual solutions back. It's quite common in big cities where main trunk lines require high capacity, but the requirement for capacity diminishes the farther out it goes and the stations begin to fragment, so the train is split up instead. Still a win, but not as big a win as you imply. No, it's because they're not putting a train in the vegas tunnel. This gives EVs a lot more ability to accelerate at higher speeds than cars with a gasoline engine, typically. Only an idiot would do something for free that they could get people to pay them to do. What is the point of it? I am not here to try to convince you that more hp is better for you, that is a pers, fool is parted from money, remains buthurt several years later, This story and more next on News Channel Douche, For example I bought a car which Elon said was a 700hp car (actual website said 691hp, but close enough) and which will be able to find me anywhere on private property with the summon feature. What a shock. 100 MPH in the Roadster). This discussion has been archived. The peak capacity assumes it won't grow, and the contract price of $50M is not the build cost. The notion that a bus could easily replace this tunnel ignores the huge problem that tunnels utterly avoid - space. The mass transit system developed by Elon Musk's Boring Company consists of a loop of underground tunnels carrying passengers in a high-speed electric vehicle in … Hence, subways only work where you have a combination of both high densities and low numbers of stops. Fucking. Remember when Elon seemed to be talking about actually reinventing mass transit rather than just putting his little cars into tunnels so they could avoid traffic? Sure I was a bit let down when the Los Angeles tunnel scaled back its plans and they stuck a Tesla in there, but what right do we have to expect more? "about 10 mph less than the top speed of a 1908 Ford Model T,". The tunnels are just another road lane, but you can build more of them than you can surface lanes. Math typo fail. He promises the moon, delivers Arizona desert. Oh, but OMG, Loop is so horrible because you're not having to share the ride with a bunch of strangers! But I think they miss the point. The larger it gets the worse all the problems get. They are a tunneling company. Nowhere else on Earth costs nearly as much to build subways as NYC. We're all whelmed. Life isn't always about the destination, but the journey too. But there's not even any evidence of that. The Boring Company's Las Vegas tunnel system is nearly up and running, and initial videos of the network in action hit the web on Thursday. Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? ), Power translates into acceleration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]. They are making boosters that can land back and be reused instead of being dumped like garbage in the oceans. There may be more comments in this discussion. So it's basically that monorail episode of The Simpsons. There's a middle ground. Elon Musk's Boring Company showed off its 1.7 mile loop of tunnel underneath the Las Vegas Convention Center this week, and Electrek writes that ". I'd mod this up if I could. That it didn't integrate with and bolster the existing commuter rail system in CA, thus serving even more cities? The entire point however remains that vehicles are of limited size because this is PRT, direct to destination, in a highway structure (onramps / offramps / arterials / branching side routes), rather than a linear, stop-at-every-station (or for major routes, every X stations), go-the-wrong-way- and-then-back, start-and-end-far-from- where-you-want-to-be system built around large vehicles.
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